Original comment:
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So since you guys are getting all echo-chambery, I'll offer a counterpoint.
The reason "manly men" don't want to give an inch when it comes to fear is because once you do, that's how your life is forever.
You think that disease is going to go away after covid-19? Of course not. It will *always* be "looking out for others" to wear a mask. It will *always* be EVEN BETTER to buy a hazmat suit. You think the guys with t-shirts on their face are doing enough for society? I built a sanitation station at my house along with respirators and hazmat suits for my family because I *actually care about society* (unlike *some people*).
And helmets are good, yeah, but you don't just fall on your head. You should be wearing knee pads and elbow pads too - and of course, pads for your wrists.
We could go on and on with this and the fact that you guys stop at "cloth mask good enough" and think you're making a big difference is just silly. Do you even know how much of a difference you're making? Do you have the actual data on how well cotton fabric prevents the spread of various illnesses?
And, when you acknowledge that you don't because nobody does and that you're just virtue signaling without all the data (*greater-than-zero is always worth it!*) - but more than that, policing the lives of others because of your perceived "lack of an ego" and "righteousness" - you're a shining example of why "manly men" don't wear masks.
We do not rush blindly into changing every aspect of our society because you decide it's "just a piece of fabric."
You're the same ones that were on our side when we agreed women shouldn't be forced to wear Burkas. It was "just a piece of fabric" then - why did you care?
[I never thought this satirical video would sum up people's actual opinions in 2020.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5Otla5157c)
Automod did that. You can figure out what the trigger was by posting your comment paragraph by paragraph and seeing what stays. I would guess it was the use of "you" and some other word or words. Politics seems to have a filter for when users refer to others like that too much.
>The reason "manly men" don't want to give an inch when it comes to fear is because once you do, that's how your life is forever.
Slippery slope fallacy. That's the premise of your whole argument.
Ah yes the slippery slope fallacy. Being forced to to mitigate transmission for a few years (yes, nothing is fucking perfect at stopping transmission) will absolutely result in a full on stripping of your rights.
Of course, there are better than just cloth masks, but given you are the claimant here, and thus the onus is on you under Hitchens razor to provide evidence of your claim. You implied that cloth masks do nothing in your “think you are making a big difference is silly” comment. So please, do you know how much of a difference they make? Do you have any data on how well cotton fabric prevents the spread of illnesses?
The stark contrast between you mocking changes to save lives in your “greater than zero is always worth it” to you boasting about building a sanitation station with respirators “because you actually care about society” is fucking retarded to say the least.
How easily and quickly Americans displayed their clear disdain for their fellow man. I sincerely hope there is a god out there, at least a bunch of very deceitful and dishonest christians will be burning alongside my atheist ass
This is the fucking shittiest take on covid I’ve read so far. You deserved the censorship you absolute cretin
Quit being lazy dude.
Nobody knows how effective cloth masks are - there have been next to no studies on the subject which is why it's laughable to start drafting policy requiring it. A few have come out in the past couple of weeks - many funded by the same organizations making the suggestions. Here's one:
[Studies show that respirators actually make a difference. Cloth masks, not so much:](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7191274/)
>Randomised controlled trials in health care workers showed that respirators, if worn continually during a shift, were effective but not if worn intermittently. Medical masks were not effective, and cloth masks even less effective.
But it's not even on me to prove that they're effective - it's on you, the person insisting that they are. That's how the burden of proof works.
>The stark contrast between you mocking changes to save lives in your “greater than zero is always worth it” to you boasting about building a sanitation station with respirators “because you actually care about society” is fucking retarded to say the least.
Greater than zero is **not** always worth it. That was my point. If it were, we'd all wear helmets, knee pads, etc.
And deciding the bar is "cloth mask" is equally arbitrary and fatuous. That was my second point. If you want to look down on people not wearing cloth masks, why don't we throw on respirators and look down on you... and then throw on hazmat suits and look down on the respirators... etc. ad infinitum.
It's fatuous to do so.
>How easily and quickly Americans displayed their clear disdain for their fellow man.
No, I'm literally defending my fellow man's freedom of choice. I don't decide their choice is wrong and then try to force them to choose the way I would personally **because I don't have disdain for them.**
>I sincerely hope there is a god out there, at least a bunch of very deceitful and dishonest christians will be burning alongside my atheist ass
You hope there's a God so that people who disagree with you can suffer for eternity... and I'm the one who has "disdain for my fellow man"? Lol - how out of touch are you fam?
>This is the fucking shittiest take on covid I’ve read so far. You deserved the censorship you absolute cretin
I implore you to be a better human being - maybe pull yourself up from down under, yeah?
You'll notice that I don't wish death or suffering on the people I disagree with because I'm not, as you say, a cretin.
You absolute spud. Who was it that made the post and comment with the INITIAL argument stating that the cloth masks are ineffective. For fucks sake, that means the burden of proof is not on me for questioning you. I can fly. No you can’t. Ok so prove i can’t fly.
Nothing from that study suggest that they are ineffective, just less effective. Don’t twist results to suit yourself. Let’s read the conclusion shall we?:
“
The study suggests that community mask use by well people could be beneficial, particularly for COVID-19, where transmission may be pre-symptomatic. The studies of masks as source control also suggest a benefit, and may be important during the COVID-19 pandemic in universal community face mask use as well as in health care settings. Trials in healthcare workers support the use of respirators continuously during a shift. This may prevent health worker infections and deaths from COVID-19, as aerosolisation in the hospital setting has been documented.”
A good example of this is, when compared to exercise, yoga is much less effective at health benefits. When compared to nothing, yoga is very effective. I’ve just published a systematic review in BJSM, I know the bullshit you’re trying to pull.
You can’t keep using the slippery slope fallacy for the greater than zero argument. It’s literally a fallacy which actually means poor reasoning. Your reasoning is poor reasoning. Do you get that? Do you not give a fuck about human life? How many humans are worth your efforts? If I can save one life through minor inconveniences throughout my day, I fucking will. You can’t compare wearing knee pads and helmets during normal activities because you aren’t at risk of inhaling microscopic particles which can kill you and your family on a day to day basis. Falls risks are only a real issue in the elderly and disabled (which do wear helmets to mitigate such risk)
I didn’t mention any bar. You should take all reasonable action to prevent exposure. Given the proportion of Americans currently in poverty or one pay check from being on the street, a cloth mask is all most can afford. So sure, chuck on your hazmat and look down on me, you’re still doing me a massive favour by wearing it.
Your words seem to be at odds with you claiming you don’t have disdain for your fellow man. I really don’t think freedom of choice is an important thing compared to being fucking alive, outside of voluntary euthanasia anyway. But when your freedom of choice has a measurable impact on other and could cause them to die, and you exercise that choice in that fashion, you absolutely deserve fairy tale demon burny death
It's cool that we can have a back and forth conversation, isn't it?
Isn't it nice that your opinions can be tested instead of me just deleting your comments and ignoring you?
Let's take a second to appreciate that... you absolute spud! 🙂💗
>Who was it that made the post and comment with the INITIAL argument stating that the cloth masks are ineffective.
Maybe you've heard - idk if you're on the same planet I am... but if you are - **people are arguing an awful lot about the importance of wearing cloth masks.**
I didn't start saying, "put this on - for your safety" - [it was suggested by the CDC](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/cloth-face-cover.html) (who initially argued that masks were not effective or suggested - now apparently recognized as a ploy to secure PPE for medical workers).
They literally say this in that link:
>The cloth face coverings recommended are not surgical masks or N-95 respirators. Those are critical supplies that must continue to be reserved for healthcare workers and other medical first responders, as recommended by current CDC guidance.
If N-95 respirators work so much better, why wouldn't people want what actually works? Oh, out of selflessness - that's right. The "plebs" who are spreading this stuff and who we don't want to die should just use a t-shirt instead.
It's ridiculous and that's why I said the onus is on the people claiming a t-shirt over the face is effective.
Is it better than nothing? Sure - so is a banana I imagine. A banana would at least block some of the cough particles. Maybe we should all wear bananas on our face? The argument makes as much sense without data.
>A good example of this is, when compared to exercise, yoga is much less effective at health benefits. When compared to nothing, yoga is very effective.
Yeah - try to keep up dude. "*Better than nothing!*" is the stupidest reason to do anything.
We don't wear helmets - remember?
>You can’t keep using the slippery slope fallacy for the greater than zero argument. Do you not give a fuck about human life?
[This video does a better job of explaining why your argument is stupid than I would (it's more entertaining too).](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXWhbUUE4ko&t=14s)
>If I can save one life through minor inconveniences throughout my day, I fucking will.
*But are you?* Or are you not doing anything at all?
Do you have some data that shows you're helping?
Is my banana saving lives?
>You can’t compare wearing knee pads and helmets during normal activities because you aren’t at risk of inhaling microscopic particles which can kill you and your family on a day to day basis.
I'm not sure you're keeping up with the argument dude. My point is that we weigh the pros and the cons of particular behaviors based on how risky they are. If a t-shirt over the face prevents covid-19 spread by `.00000000001%`, is it worth wearing one all day? If you say yes, how about `.0000000000000000000000000000000001%`? Do you still feel like you're saving the world or are you provably doing nothing? Are you still following along?
This is why we use actual data when we make our choices and we don't all walk around with orange slices over our face because "*the acid in the orange may kill some of the virus! It's better than nothing!*"
>You should take all reasonable action to prevent exposure.
There's the word we're looking for - "reasonable." Is a t-shirt reasonable? Or is it virtue signaling?
>So sure, chuck on your hazmat and look down on me, you’re still doing me a massive favour by wearing it.
But you're not - you're not caring enough about people. You should be ashamed and wear a hazmat suit too.
Will you? Can we have you in a full blown space suit by the end of this?
Or would you just stay inside which keeps everyone 100% safe from you in the first place?
>I really don’t think freedom of choice is an important thing compared to being fucking alive
Yeah, you'd make a good slave. Is that what you want to be? To hear? Come on now bro.
>But when your freedom of choice has a measurable impact on other and could cause them to die, and you exercise that choice in that fashion, you absolutely deserve fairy tale demon burny death.
Piss off ya wanka! Honestly I don't know what else to say to someone who wishes suffering on others because they refuse wear a banana on their face and they're not comfortable losing their freedoms.
You haven’t put much effort to actually address the underlying arguments in here mate, so I’m not going to continue. You can’t talk about data when you’ve offered none to back your claims of ineffectiveness. You’ve slipped so far down the slope there is no chance of me pulling you back up I guess.
As for the n95 vs cloth: look up viral loads. They are exposed to greater amounts of the virus, and more frequently
Cunts like yourself make me truly ashamed of the ANZUS treaty. I look forward to seeing more deleted posts of yours on here you shit cunt xx
Well I love you even though we disagree and I appreciate you taking the time to have a conversation with me.
Your thoughts and opinions provide insights and that is helpful to all of us.
I hope you can learn to separate your emotions from political disagreements - it makes it a lot less aggravating.
It’s the auto mod. You gotta obfuscate certain key words. I believe if your karma is below a certain level you aren’t allowed to use certain words or phrases or the auto mod deletes it.
> program auto mod to remove keywords I don’t want to hear and arguments I don’t want seen
u/Joey_Jake It’S tHe AuTo MoD
There’s two scenarios here and neither one of them is tolerable
And, as usual guys, I know face masks are an issue for a lot of you. As I said in my original comment, I only go outside with a respirator and a hazmat suit. Sometimes I give dirty looks to people who think they're being safe when they wear cloth masks - it's ridiculous. They're putting everyone at risk.
^ This is sarcasm.
[Studies show that respirators actually make a difference. Cloth masks, not so much:](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7191274/)
>Randomised controlled trials in health care workers showed that respirators, if worn continually during a shift, were effective but not if worn intermittently. Medical masks were not effective, and cloth masks even less effective.
Even the flippant description of “not so much” is better than: not at all.
Protect your country by doing a little to help.
What happened to us where individualism takes precedent in the face of national tragedy?
I’m not confident that you interpreted the results of the study you’re citing correctly, considering they did come to the conclusion that the masks had reduced transmission when used in the community, especially when used by carriers, which is what the entire debate over mask use is about.
Your emphasis that it wasn’t found to be effective in healthcare workers is primarily evidence of how much more exposure they have than the general public as would be expected, and not that they’re therefore effective to reduce transmission among the public as you’re claiming - and as this study specifically contradicts.
Finally, your argument that there is a slippery slope from requiring or encouraging people to wear masks is ... The Slippery Slope fallacy. Which is a fallacy for a reason. Your assumption that restrictions on behavior will necessarily grow more burdensome up to a comical degree over time is an assumption that benefits your argument and that we don’t have to share. Most people agreed to wear seatbelts while driving and it didn’t result in everyone wearing helmets and other cumbersome safety mechanisms while driving like you’re suggesting it would.
Ultimately, these are pretty weak objections to a safety measure that is an extremely minor inconvenience for most people once adopted, for the sake of hypotheticals about freedom that will ultimately never be relevant, and take into account only a specific idea of freedom and ignore, say, other people’s desire to be free of disease regardless of your desire to allow them to accept higher risk.
See, the reason I post comments is so that we can have a discussion. It's nice when it's allowed to happen, you know?
You argue the "slippery slope fallacy", but disease isn't going away. If I accept your argument for mask use, **we should have always worn masks and we should always wear masks going forward.** It's always "safer" (greater than zero) to wear any face covering when you're around others. It's always going to be "safer" (greater than zero).
This will not change if/when the covid-19 cases slow. It will *always* be "selfish" to be outside not wearing a face covering *nudges middle eastern women*. There's a reason we don't all wear helmets even though falling kills 36,000+ people every year. That's the point I was trying to make.
There's no slippery slope - healthy people wearing masks because they might not know they're sick and disease always exists is already burdensome.
We could make the same argument for mandating hazmat suits. Would you be upset about it then?
"*We can stop disease right now if we all just agree that we care about others and wear hazmat suits - use the decontamination chambers provided by your government/employers.*"
Or, alternatively, "*keep a t-shirt on your face you dolt!*" - it's the same b.s.
I actually chuckled today when I went to get my haircut and put on the required Cloth Mask™ (issued by my employer) and the stylist took it off of my face no less than 3 times to cut behind my ears. The whole time I'm thinking "oh crap, my required mask is off... she could be sick" until I remembered that it likely makes no difference at all.
It’s new. There’s no known cure. This is different.
E: the idea is not overburden health facilities. Since this virus is new, highly contagious, and overburdens healthcare facilities, the best defense we have *right now* is to limit the spread as much as possible until a cure is known.
We use the best defenses we have available for any given problem. By your logic, we shouldn’t be using our best defenses on anything since anything can happen.
I hate to break it to you bro, but you're not getting a cure for the cold anytime soon.
This virus is here and it's not going anywhere anytime soon.
And our "best defenses" are a lot better than a t-shirt on your face.
All social media is censored with a great deal of bias. Lying is allowed on these platforms. These platforms have subjective rule so that they can control speech. It's a form of corporate fascism.
Anyone not wearing a mask is a retard. Your post was mostly a mindless ramble. Don't wear a mask because the terrorists win? Jesus fucking christ. Sure cloth masks aren't as effective as going full on bubble boy, but they can help reduce the amount of virus being spread if you happen to be infected. I really don't know what your overall point was, but I'm guessing it was dumb.
> cloth masks aren't as effective as going full on bubble boy, but they can help reduce
And a jacket offers some bullet resistance. But if you actually think it will protect you when some cop tries to murder you, you're dreaming.
Those masks won't stop shit.
Plus, your argument is a logical fallacy.
28 comments
18 u/XxTyraelxX 27 May 2020 03:39
10 u/ThomasJeffersonMod * 27 May 2020 12:17
5 u/[deleted] [OP] * 27 May 2020 12:39
5 u/LibertyIsNotFree 27 May 2020 13:32
1 u/[deleted] [OP] * 27 May 2020 14:07
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9 u/[deleted] [OP] 27 May 2020 16:22
-4 u/theaussiewhisperer 27 May 2020 21:51
2 u/XxTyraelxX * 27 May 2020 22:02
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3 u/XxTyraelxX * 27 May 2020 22:37
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1 u/XxTyraelxX * 27 May 2020 22:56
9 u/Joey_Jake 27 May 2020 04:29
7 u/derkevevin 27 May 2020 10:24
4 u/[deleted] [OP] 27 May 2020 17:01
3 u/XxTyraelxX * 27 May 2020 03:46
0 u/daother-guy 27 May 2020 13:02
6 u/EnjoysYelling 27 May 2020 13:54
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1 u/XxTyraelxX 28 May 2020 08:51
2 u/EvilIsGod 27 May 2020 21:18
1 u/[deleted] [OP] 01 Jun 2020 15:35
-6 u/Linxiekins †27 May 2020 06:44
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