I'd agree on some ways if coding wasn't such a great way to teach troubleshooting skills, critical thinking, mental mapping, and breaking complex problems into smaller problems. Those skills are more valuable than my entire education. Nearly all of what I learned in a classroom has never or will ever be used outside of a classroom, and it only required the skill of regurgitation.
Back in my day (when all this was fields) you had to have at least a rudimentary understanding of the way computers work, or you weren't able to use them.
Now, you see some kid watching YouTube on a tablet and everyone is cooing about how "good they are with computers".
Fuck off, at least about 80% of computer owners back in the day could program at least in BASIC.
Amen to this. I hate that Millennial kids were told they were special because they "learned" how to use a computer when computers were "new." This Gen Z is even worse...
Coding for kids is wildly popular with educators, politicians, parents, the tech industry, and people who run coding camps. But not everyone is sold. "Coding is a valuable skill – for maybe 2 per cent of the labour force," writes Alex Usher, who runs Higher Education Strategy Associates, a consulting firm. "What the rest of us need is digital literacy and proficiency. Being able to write software is not the issue: Rather, it is the ability to apply and use software productively that is the issue."
I couldn't agree more. Programming is not like cooking; everyone should learn to cook because we all eat but you don't need to program to use a computer. We need a few good coders not vast amounts of terrible ones.
We need a few good coders not vast amounts of terrible ones.
Don't tell that to employers. They're desperate to have more candidates. It'll help them keep down wages especially if Trump closes down or limits H1B visas.
Actually, it really helps to know how to repair cars, and a basic understanding of how the mechanics work will mean you'll use it inside correct operating procedures and be able to use it more safely for longer before requiring a mechanic.
That attitude is lazy AF, but then again, I'm an engineer so I enjoy learning things. Maybe I'm wrong.
I didn't say know how to repair or maintain a car. I said build a car. Knowing how a computer works from a basic level and operating software, even as a power user, does not require programming knowledge. You might think it is lazy AF but having spent 25 years as a programmer I can tell you most users want to do their non-programming related job rather than learn to program. Computers are tools for users to enable them to do their job or make it easier. Adding programming to that mix is a waste of their time (and everyone else's for that matter) because they will either not learn it or worse still build Rube Goldberg-esque software contraptions that become hazards to all who come in contact with them. I'm all for people learning things but programming for non-programmers is not necessary. Do you know how to spin, weave, sew and alter textiles/clothing since you wear clothes? As an engineer I'm sure you have knowledge of the concepts but that does not make you a tailor/seamstress and neither should you be expected to be. I'd rather people learn skills that actually translate to everyday use for them like cooking and managing money. That is what we need to teach kids.
Your analogy there then is more akin to be being able to solder up a half adder or somesuch, not programming. The programming is the "driving" (to stretch the car analogy), and when Billy No Skills proudly sums a column in his Excel spreadsheet, he is, in a fashion doing rudimentary programming. Unfortunately he's only able to drive in ways which have been imagined by the car manufacturer.
I'm an engineer that spends a good portion of his day writing software - from bit twiddling to PLC code to GUI front ends in several different languages. My background is actually in CS, so I'm not completely clueless (in case you were wondering).
If you can't at least do the most basic of programming, then you can't really make your computer do what you want it to - but that depends on you wanting to do something other than share pictures of your dinner on Facebook, balance your chequebook (showing my age too, there) or surf for porn, so on that we both agree. Not everyone should be forced to learn to program, but anyone who owns a computer should be able to command it in a reasonable fashion - being by Python or Bash script, or whatever Windows comes with (I guess Powershell or batch files). If you don't know the first thing about basic security and how computer programs work, you're a liability to the rest of the computer using community and should buy a fucking tablet or something.
On the subject of amateur programming horror stories, I'm not saying anyone else should use them! I have suites of little scripts and utilities that are of the "get the job done" variety that I'd be horrified to show a programmer because they're just for me, and I don't have a problem with people who do that and actively encourage it. Incidentally, some of the worst code I've seen is that written by professional programmers!
TL; DR What i'm saying, in summary, is that empowering people to really use the machines they own involves more than using it like a fridge, and a more personally empowered society is a better one. And a good proportion of professional programmers suck balls at programming.
Good developers will find their way to coding naturally. It is their curiosity that makes them find coding. If you need to teach kids then the wrong type of people enter the developers world and they will be very unhappy in the end.
IN the developers world, the bad ones gets replaced... or become project managers.
Must be a 30 year old fad. I learned LOGO in 5th grade in 1989 and BASIC during the next three years of middle school. Minnesota public school district 196.
15 comments
4 u/Sosacms 15 Aug 2017 14:38
I'd agree on some ways if coding wasn't such a great way to teach troubleshooting skills, critical thinking, mental mapping, and breaking complex problems into smaller problems. Those skills are more valuable than my entire education. Nearly all of what I learned in a classroom has never or will ever be used outside of a classroom, and it only required the skill of regurgitation.
3 u/Atarian 15 Aug 2017 21:54
Back in my day (when all this was fields) you had to have at least a rudimentary understanding of the way computers work, or you weren't able to use them.
Now, you see some kid watching YouTube on a tablet and everyone is cooing about how "good they are with computers".
Fuck off, at least about 80% of computer owners back in the day could program at least in BASIC.
0 u/teatime 17 Aug 2017 13:22
Amen to this. I hate that Millennial kids were told they were special because they "learned" how to use a computer when computers were "new." This Gen Z is even worse...
2 u/roznak [OP] 15 Aug 2017 12:02
3 u/Morbo 15 Aug 2017 13:46
I couldn't agree more. Programming is not like cooking; everyone should learn to cook because we all eat but you don't need to program to use a computer. We need a few good coders not vast amounts of terrible ones.
3 u/J_Darnley 15 Aug 2017 16:23
Don't tell that to employers. They're desperate to have more candidates. It'll help them keep down wages especially if Trump closes down or limits H1B visas.
0 u/Atarian 15 Aug 2017 22:03
I don't agree. Give a man a fish, etc.
Not being able to program limits what you can do with a computer, and you get only to do with it what someone tells you that you can.
May as well be an iPhone user.
1 u/Morbo 15 Aug 2017 22:07
You shouldn't need to know how to build a car to use one. It is a programmer's job to make sure users don't need to learn programming.
0 u/Atarian 15 Aug 2017 23:01
Actually, it really helps to know how to repair cars, and a basic understanding of how the mechanics work will mean you'll use it inside correct operating procedures and be able to use it more safely for longer before requiring a mechanic.
That attitude is lazy AF, but then again, I'm an engineer so I enjoy learning things. Maybe I'm wrong.
0 u/Morbo 15 Aug 2017 23:32
I didn't say know how to repair or maintain a car. I said build a car. Knowing how a computer works from a basic level and operating software, even as a power user, does not require programming knowledge. You might think it is lazy AF but having spent 25 years as a programmer I can tell you most users want to do their non-programming related job rather than learn to program. Computers are tools for users to enable them to do their job or make it easier. Adding programming to that mix is a waste of their time (and everyone else's for that matter) because they will either not learn it or worse still build Rube Goldberg-esque software contraptions that become hazards to all who come in contact with them. I'm all for people learning things but programming for non-programmers is not necessary. Do you know how to spin, weave, sew and alter textiles/clothing since you wear clothes? As an engineer I'm sure you have knowledge of the concepts but that does not make you a tailor/seamstress and neither should you be expected to be. I'd rather people learn skills that actually translate to everyday use for them like cooking and managing money. That is what we need to teach kids.
0 u/Atarian 16 Aug 2017 12:15
Your analogy there then is more akin to be being able to solder up a half adder or somesuch, not programming. The programming is the "driving" (to stretch the car analogy), and when Billy No Skills proudly sums a column in his Excel spreadsheet, he is, in a fashion doing rudimentary programming. Unfortunately he's only able to drive in ways which have been imagined by the car manufacturer.
I'm an engineer that spends a good portion of his day writing software - from bit twiddling to PLC code to GUI front ends in several different languages. My background is actually in CS, so I'm not completely clueless (in case you were wondering).
If you can't at least do the most basic of programming, then you can't really make your computer do what you want it to - but that depends on you wanting to do something other than share pictures of your dinner on Facebook, balance your chequebook (showing my age too, there) or surf for porn, so on that we both agree. Not everyone should be forced to learn to program, but anyone who owns a computer should be able to command it in a reasonable fashion - being by Python or Bash script, or whatever Windows comes with (I guess Powershell or batch files). If you don't know the first thing about basic security and how computer programs work, you're a liability to the rest of the computer using community and should buy a fucking tablet or something.
On the subject of amateur programming horror stories, I'm not saying anyone else should use them! I have suites of little scripts and utilities that are of the "get the job done" variety that I'd be horrified to show a programmer because they're just for me, and I don't have a problem with people who do that and actively encourage it. Incidentally, some of the worst code I've seen is that written by professional programmers!
TL; DR What i'm saying, in summary, is that empowering people to really use the machines they own involves more than using it like a fridge, and a more personally empowered society is a better one. And a good proportion of professional programmers suck balls at programming.
0 u/glugglug 15 Aug 2017 22:30
Not a fad. Most developers who are any good started long before high school. Personally I started at age 7. In 1980.
0 u/roznak [OP] 16 Aug 2017 16:28
Good developers will find their way to coding naturally. It is their curiosity that makes them find coding. If you need to teach kids then the wrong type of people enter the developers world and they will be very unhappy in the end.
IN the developers world, the bad ones gets replaced... or become project managers.
0 u/cozywarmblanket 21 Aug 2017 02:33
It does seem silly. Everyone should learn but dont expect them to be programmers.
0 u/055d764559 23 Sep 2017 00:37
Must be a 30 year old fad. I learned LOGO in 5th grade in 1989 and BASIC during the next three years of middle school. Minnesota public school district 196.