I don't understand this coveted industry meme, coders are basically low prestige factory workers in 90% of cases.
You're lucky as a coder to get an ergonomic work area that won't destroy your body and to get to go home at 5.
You get to make no decisions of any importance, often receive no respect from decision makers who know absolutely nothing about how to develop software and are grossly underpaid compared to actual engineers, even if you have equivalent ability and education, because most places only want code monkeys.
Yes, there are a few jobs that are fantastic, but the factory worker code monkey jobs are far more prevalent.
Do yourself a favor and become a chemical, electrical, or mechanical engineer.. or a doctor or lawyer. Go into something actually prestigious.
Stay away from engineering. Unless you are truly stellar, it's a thankless profession for expendable drones in organizations that promote on diversity. You're much better off learning a trade and opening your own business.
Unless you are truly stellar, it's a thankless profession for expendable drones in organizations that promote on diversity. You're much better off spending a few years learning a trade and then opening your own business.
This could be said of damned near any mega-corp job.
That's the real problem here. It's extremely hard to make a living working for yourself anymore. Consolidation (resulting from crony capitalism, i.e. corrupt government) has resulted in a market where even if you have plenty of capital to start your business and manage it into great profitability, it's still a matter of luck whether or not one of the two to five megacorps in your field decide to move in on the market you've built and undercut you selling at a loss until you go bankrupt (and then go back to charging twice what you did.)
"The labor market is shit because working for yourself is a crapshoot no matter how smart, skilled or hardworking you are" -
Not necessarily. If you are smart you can start a woman owned business enterprise and put your wife down as the president. Then you get preferential treatment as a subcontractor to big firms looking to satisfy diversity requirements for govt contracts.
You're right. But I worked in engineering for 20+ years.
90% of all engineering careers at least start with megacorp type jobs. They have to. Most engineering projects are big, expensive, and capital intensive.
That's why I got out of it.
That's why I recommend young guys be very careful about engineering careers, and carefully consider trades - or coding - or other opportunities where they don't have to rely on the resources of a big organization to make a good living.
I had to work my ass off to get where I am, but I work from home, make my own hours, and am a productive badass...the company I'm working for needs me, I've got them by the balls. I honestly can't imagine going back to a real job.
You're clueless. A good coder who knows how to leverage their talent can make over 200 grand a year putting in ~20 hours a week from anywhere in the world. You're the golden goose and tentpole for 7-8 figure contracts
Exactly, one thing I constantly talk about is how there is a massive skills shortage in the IT industry thanks to pajeet culture, India and other countries churn out low skilled drones which means that there are significantly less skilled engineers coming through the ranks. For example salaries in my department start at $140k per year and backfill is done by contractors who are paid $1500 a day
Where do you work? I'd like to get my hands on some of that 1500 a day once I'm done living the laid back automated test engineering life later this year
That's almost always entirely on them. I can't think of any other profession where as much upward mobility can be achieved as efficiently.
I know several dozens of coders making 5 figures who haven't interviewed for 5+ years. Whose fault is that? If you consistently network/interview and have decent competence you're all but guaranteed to get an offer and position much higher than yours at least once a year, especially if someone wins a moonshot contract they did not expect. Obviously you want to market yourself as an architect/data scientist/all that in addition to coder but you can easily sell yourself as well rounded and then round out the kinks on the fly.
I do interview, probably more than once a year on average. If I only had to work 20 hours a week or had 6 months off and worked from home I'd gladly take $50,000, let alone supposedly $200,000.
I do get tons of offers to interview but they are all clearly scams by recruiters.
I had a job where I would have cleared 6 figures easily by now, but I hated its location and ended up in a low prestige code monkey job when I left due to being naive. Now I'm back on track somewhere decent but I no longer have any enthusiasm for the profession.
I'm in the US, how do you find a work from home job that isn't clearly a scam and after that, how do you actually accomplish anything? Make up for time lost while sysadmins ignore you by working through meetings? (At least if you work for a mega corp)
Any time I hear of some non Asian minority or a woman creating some amazing app I automatically assume it's a grab for fame and praise for something they didn't do. Because I see this played out in the industry a thousand times over even in companies I've worked for. Literally our worst developer was a female Asian and despite never producing working code that cost the company 10's if not 100's of thousands of dollars in production defects she was constantly given perfect reviews and praised. In the instance that I had to take work that she had 3 weeks to do and completely redo it on a Sunday because I was also tied to the deadline she some how got praise for it despite me being like 'hold the fuck on. Look at this commit log. I rewrote everything touched just 2 days ago.'
It sounds like you don't know how to navigate the politics of the situation. Whether it's a dudette or a dude some pissant will always try to take credit for your work. The solution is to make an utterly impossible steaming pile of shit of an idea that sounds good, let them take all the credit for the idea, and then watch them fail.
That's the problem. They fail and still get praise. Their section in this case was a subset of features I was expected to produce. My other underlings produced passable work. This one completely and utterly failed to follow specifications I wrote and despite daily checkins still failed. When I said "what happened here? The specifications had details down to the function names.". Answer was "I didn't read the spec". This was the simplest part of the overall feature so I was spending more effort overseeing the complex parts and implementing some of them on my own. My fault for not seeing that somewhat downs looking face and not knowing better.
In this case if they failed I failed. I don't like to fail and try to fail as little as possible. Especially on a release worth many millions of dollars in gained revenue.
Sometimes these negative-productivity people make your life easier though :-) there was this dude who kept breaking things ; I eventually developed a neat little routine : every time I got a bug that was a regression - and I was hunting for these - it became a matter of figuring out what this guy had touched in the relevant code since the bug occurred and just undo it...never ceased to amaze me that we were both paid to do this :-) (I am smiling now but it was actually not all that fun at the time...)
I was feeling a bit down on myself today, but I wanted to thank you for reminding me that even if I think I'm retarded, there are always plenty of retards that think they're smart.
I did. Make a lot more money and don't work in a place that has that problem anymore I don't think. There is only one woman on the team and she actually seems competent enough. There are other problems but that doesn't seem to be one. Perks of not working for a company is silicon valley ties.
Making simple apps isn't even that hard, I 100% believe some 16 year old could make one.
They could never make it secure and scalable without education and years of experience, but most successful apps will just hire people who can do that after finding success
"was a female ...and despite never producing...she was constantly given perfect reviews and praised. "
I've seen plenty of that. What's worse is that these women tend to get promoted very quickly. Before you know it, you're answering to one of these clueless babes. Things get even more interesting when they start sleeping their way up the org chart.
No point in crying about it though. Guys will do what they have always done. Figure out a way to solve or avoid the problem and succeed anyway.
Predictable nowadays I suppose, but once it was different. However nice to see reports of what kinds of stories reddit is trying to suppress. More reports like these and maybe more and more reddit users might see the light and dump that place.
females are psychologically spatially challenged, this is why they suck at equations and are confused over what to do and whether they are even competent.
He was rewarded for being muslim and bringing something to school that looked like a bomb. Unlike the white kid who chewed his bread into the shape of a gun and got expelled.
I remember Scrums back in about 2012. Then Sprints. About two years ago Agile which I guess is still going strong.
I could not explain the difference among any of them. Other than contractors (the shitty types) are making a lot of money pushing these retarded things on companies.
But Agile overcomes the strawman Waterfall methodology ... that no one actually ever used in the first place. It is shoehorning in an extreme to counter nothing that ever existed in the first place.
poo in loo paid another dude to develop program and sign an nda.
poo in loo took all the credit and said she developed it all herself. This is false because the author did a few things to see if all the code was written by the same person. Because it was obviously written by more than one person she is indisputably lying.
I feel as though this story is what feminism is striving for. Women get all the glory, while some poor shmuck is doing all the work behind the scenes. They want all the praise and accolades, but don't want to work for it.
Upon reaching out to the the dev in question, he went to the extent of saying that he “allowed her” to call the app hers, given certain “circumstances”.
It is very , very sad that the internet, which used to be a safe space to voice our opinion, can be weaponised against you by making such bizzare allegations
Uh last I checked it was true
But after reading her blogpost, her stackoverflow/github history in an attempt to understand her struggles as a self-taught programmer; I figured that there was no struggle at all! Self taught programmers are full of numerous questions, but she didn’t seem to have any! Neither is there any progression of all the tasks she did.
People clean up their git hub when they are committing? I mean if it was proven that shes a dumb broad then so be it, but I mean I tend to clean a lot of shit up, how ever my stack overflow is full of stupid questions.
After converting the .nib files to readable format, I found the name of primary developer who probably got no credit for building a marvelous app, whereas she is being lauded as a the next global prodigy.
And here's the real evidence - what a typical women. Trying to win one over for their kind.
And no, before someone gets on the bandwagon and calls me a bully, or says I’m harassing her, I am not.
This is what's sad about women in code, even if they are found to be fake ass bitches, they scream rape (exaggeration but ... Is it really?)
Such kind of people give Women in Code a really, really bad name, because sweetie, it takes tonnes of hardwork, cutting through competition, persistent dealing with sexism and lot of patience to make place for yourself in this male-dominant coveted industry. Being a poster girl for women in software, without knowing how to do a decent job at same coupled with bad work ethics is not right! Period.
He is right, this is a white male privilege community (I rarely see minority in my jobs unless we are handing it off to those god damn Indians that we have to re-write any ways). Male being the obvious word. All the sexism in the last two years has been mostly women bashing men and complaining about men even existing next to them at a open work space office. But we can't call harassment or bullying because then we look bad, or worse then we already look.
Developing computer software is complicated business, and yet, a huge number of youngsters are staking their claim writing apps that take the world by storm. Has app development really become accessible to all? Are we living in an age of prodigies?
No to all of that, Programming is hard - and I do not believe every child should learn to code, it is a passion, a seed that grows in your heart and takes over your fingers and mind, it is the thing that keeps you awake at night - fuck it's like civilization (one more turn, one more line of code).
61 comments
1 u/AmaleksHairyAss 05 Feb 2018 16:04
This is true, but most of the sexism is anti-male
lolno. "There are mostly guys" does not equal "the guys only help other guys"
lololololololololol
0 u/gentronseven 05 Feb 2018 16:16
I don't understand this coveted industry meme, coders are basically low prestige factory workers in 90% of cases.
You're lucky as a coder to get an ergonomic work area that won't destroy your body and to get to go home at 5.
You get to make no decisions of any importance, often receive no respect from decision makers who know absolutely nothing about how to develop software and are grossly underpaid compared to actual engineers, even if you have equivalent ability and education, because most places only want code monkeys.
Yes, there are a few jobs that are fantastic, but the factory worker code monkey jobs are far more prevalent.
Do yourself a favor and become a chemical, electrical, or mechanical engineer.. or a doctor or lawyer. Go into something actually prestigious.
0 u/cuello_rojo 05 Feb 2018 17:11
Stay away from engineering. Unless you are truly stellar, it's a thankless profession for expendable drones in organizations that promote on diversity. You're much better off learning a trade and opening your own business.
0 u/Plavonica 05 Feb 2018 17:30
This could be said of damned near any mega-corp job.
0 u/Bmn003 05 Feb 2018 18:10
That's the real problem here. It's extremely hard to make a living working for yourself anymore. Consolidation (resulting from crony capitalism, i.e. corrupt government) has resulted in a market where even if you have plenty of capital to start your business and manage it into great profitability, it's still a matter of luck whether or not one of the two to five megacorps in your field decide to move in on the market you've built and undercut you selling at a loss until you go bankrupt (and then go back to charging twice what you did.)
0 u/cuello_rojo 05 Feb 2018 20:28
"The labor market is shit because working for yourself is a crapshoot no matter how smart, skilled or hardworking you are" -
Not necessarily. If you are smart you can start a woman owned business enterprise and put your wife down as the president. Then you get preferential treatment as a subcontractor to big firms looking to satisfy diversity requirements for govt contracts.
0 u/cuello_rojo 05 Feb 2018 20:21
You're right. But I worked in engineering for 20+ years.
90% of all engineering careers at least start with megacorp type jobs. They have to. Most engineering projects are big, expensive, and capital intensive. That's why I got out of it.
That's why I recommend young guys be very careful about engineering careers, and carefully consider trades - or coding - or other opportunities where they don't have to rely on the resources of a big organization to make a good living.
0 u/lanre 05 Feb 2018 23:52
That's why you open the business in your Filippino wife's name. And hope she doesn't divorce you when she gets her green card.
0 u/WhiteRonin 06 Feb 2018 02:22
Bingo!
The state I live allows a minoroty owned company over-charge by 10%.
0 u/swastikawaii 05 Feb 2018 18:11
I had to work my ass off to get where I am, but I work from home, make my own hours, and am a productive badass...the company I'm working for needs me, I've got them by the balls. I honestly can't imagine going back to a real job.
0 u/Somali 05 Feb 2018 19:39
You're clueless. A good coder who knows how to leverage their talent can make over 200 grand a year putting in ~20 hours a week from anywhere in the world. You're the golden goose and tentpole for 7-8 figure contracts
0 u/Ericus-gar 05 Feb 2018 21:10
Exactly, one thing I constantly talk about is how there is a massive skills shortage in the IT industry thanks to pajeet culture, India and other countries churn out low skilled drones which means that there are significantly less skilled engineers coming through the ranks. For example salaries in my department start at $140k per year and backfill is done by contractors who are paid $1500 a day
0 u/Somali 06 Feb 2018 07:29
Where do you work? I'd like to get my hands on some of that 1500 a day once I'm done living the laid back automated test engineering life later this year
0 u/Ericus-gar 07 Feb 2018 20:46
Senior developer or senior devops engineer.
0 u/gentronseven 05 Feb 2018 22:53
Good for you, you're the exception and national income statistics show you're extremely above average.
It is extremely unlikely others will find your success.
0 u/Somali 06 Feb 2018 00:18
That's almost always entirely on them. I can't think of any other profession where as much upward mobility can be achieved as efficiently.
I know several dozens of coders making 5 figures who haven't interviewed for 5+ years. Whose fault is that? If you consistently network/interview and have decent competence you're all but guaranteed to get an offer and position much higher than yours at least once a year, especially if someone wins a moonshot contract they did not expect. Obviously you want to market yourself as an architect/data scientist/all that in addition to coder but you can easily sell yourself as well rounded and then round out the kinks on the fly.
0 u/gentronseven 06 Feb 2018 13:17
I do interview, probably more than once a year on average. If I only had to work 20 hours a week or had 6 months off and worked from home I'd gladly take $50,000, let alone supposedly $200,000.
I do get tons of offers to interview but they are all clearly scams by recruiters.
I had a job where I would have cleared 6 figures easily by now, but I hated its location and ended up in a low prestige code monkey job when I left due to being naive. Now I'm back on track somewhere decent but I no longer have any enthusiasm for the profession.
0 u/Libertyisgood 06 Feb 2018 06:44
You're in the wrong part of the country (world).
I've consistently made mid-six figures working from home for the past 10 years.
0 u/gentronseven 06 Feb 2018 13:20
I'm in the US, how do you find a work from home job that isn't clearly a scam and after that, how do you actually accomplish anything? Make up for time lost while sysadmins ignore you by working through meetings? (At least if you work for a mega corp)
0 u/walterhartman 06 Feb 2018 04:42
Yea, I have never seen an Indian woman working in tech before.
0 u/speedisavirus 05 Feb 2018 15:48
Any time I hear of some non Asian minority or a woman creating some amazing app I automatically assume it's a grab for fame and praise for something they didn't do. Because I see this played out in the industry a thousand times over even in companies I've worked for. Literally our worst developer was a female Asian and despite never producing working code that cost the company 10's if not 100's of thousands of dollars in production defects she was constantly given perfect reviews and praised. In the instance that I had to take work that she had 3 weeks to do and completely redo it on a Sunday because I was also tied to the deadline she some how got praise for it despite me being like 'hold the fuck on. Look at this commit log. I rewrote everything touched just 2 days ago.'
0 u/AmaleksHairyAss 05 Feb 2018 16:07
It sounds like you don't know how to navigate the politics of the situation. Whether it's a dudette or a dude some pissant will always try to take credit for your work. The solution is to make an utterly impossible steaming pile of shit of an idea that sounds good, let them take all the credit for the idea, and then watch them fail.
0 u/speedisavirus 05 Feb 2018 17:13
That's the problem. They fail and still get praise. Their section in this case was a subset of features I was expected to produce. My other underlings produced passable work. This one completely and utterly failed to follow specifications I wrote and despite daily checkins still failed. When I said "what happened here? The specifications had details down to the function names.". Answer was "I didn't read the spec". This was the simplest part of the overall feature so I was spending more effort overseeing the complex parts and implementing some of them on my own. My fault for not seeing that somewhat downs looking face and not knowing better.
In this case if they failed I failed. I don't like to fail and try to fail as little as possible. Especially on a release worth many millions of dollars in gained revenue.
0 u/Gargilius 05 Feb 2018 18:10
Sometimes these negative-productivity people make your life easier though :-) there was this dude who kept breaking things ; I eventually developed a neat little routine : every time I got a bug that was a regression - and I was hunting for these - it became a matter of figuring out what this guy had touched in the relevant code since the bug occurred and just undo it...never ceased to amaze me that we were both paid to do this :-) (I am smiling now but it was actually not all that fun at the time...)
0 u/swastikawaii 05 Feb 2018 18:13
What would have happened if the deadline had not been met?
0 u/justsayingmayne 05 Feb 2018 19:16
I was feeling a bit down on myself today, but I wanted to thank you for reminding me that even if I think I'm retarded, there are always plenty of retards that think they're smart.
0 u/AmaleksHairyAss 05 Feb 2018 20:09
So you're responsible for their work but don't have the authority to fire them?
0 u/speedisavirus 05 Feb 2018 20:24
Correct. And my review feedback was "revised" by an "adjustment board".
0 u/AmaleksHairyAss 06 Feb 2018 04:46
Dude, you need to get out of there.
0 u/speedisavirus 06 Feb 2018 16:49
I did. Make a lot more money and don't work in a place that has that problem anymore I don't think. There is only one woman on the team and she actually seems competent enough. There are other problems but that doesn't seem to be one. Perks of not working for a company is silicon valley ties.
0 u/gentronseven 05 Feb 2018 16:19
Making simple apps isn't even that hard, I 100% believe some 16 year old could make one.
They could never make it secure and scalable without education and years of experience, but most successful apps will just hire people who can do that after finding success
0 u/wesofx 16 Feb 2018 17:52
Make shitty app.
Hire 10000 employees to make it slightly less shitty and mine marketing data.
Now you are Facebook.
0 u/cuello_rojo 05 Feb 2018 20:37
"was a female ...and despite never producing...she was constantly given perfect reviews and praised. "
I've seen plenty of that. What's worse is that these women tend to get promoted very quickly. Before you know it, you're answering to one of these clueless babes. Things get even more interesting when they start sleeping their way up the org chart.
No point in crying about it though. Guys will do what they have always done. Figure out a way to solve or avoid the problem and succeed anyway.
Because that's what we do.
0 u/Schreiber 06 Feb 2018 04:48
This feminazi bullshit about pushing women in every men's vocation has got to stop.
They need to go back to the kitchen, church, or rearing children. That's what their purpose in life is.
Traditional gender roles was working for thousands of years, there is absolutely no reason to change it.
0 u/L3D 05 Feb 2018 16:23
Found it funny that posting about that on reddit was removed.
0 u/european 05 Feb 2018 17:42
Funny is not a synonymn for predictable.
0 u/L3D 05 Feb 2018 18:09
Predictable nowadays I suppose, but once it was different. However nice to see reports of what kinds of stories reddit is trying to suppress. More reports like these and maybe more and more reddit users might see the light and dump that place.
0 u/Reddit_Merari01 05 Feb 2018 16:56
Unsurprising. A female programmer turns out to be a fraud.
0 u/SHIVASHIVASHIVA 05 Feb 2018 18:16
females are psychologically spatially challenged, this is why they suck at equations and are confused over what to do and whether they are even competent.
0 u/cuello_rojo 05 Feb 2018 17:00
Reminds me of clock boy
0 u/Gargilius 05 Feb 2018 18:13
...may be she should ‘write’ the firmware for clock-boy next creation? they would have never problem raising capital for that one :-)
0 u/MrKequc 10 Feb 2018 13:20
He was rewarded for being muslim and bringing something to school that looked like a bomb. Unlike the white kid who chewed his bread into the shape of a gun and got expelled.
0 u/discipleofflies 05 Feb 2018 17:12
"As a full time dev myself (over 4 years of work experience) ..."
"There is no storyboard, lol. For any iOS dev who is just starting out, making an application without storyboards is just unbelievable."
??? I have over 20 years experience. I am not exactly sure what a storyboard is and I would not make one.
0 u/Herpfree93 05 Feb 2018 17:44
not if we scrum it!
0 u/discipleofflies 11 Feb 2018 09:54
I remember Scrums back in about 2012. Then Sprints. About two years ago Agile which I guess is still going strong.
I could not explain the difference among any of them. Other than contractors (the shitty types) are making a lot of money pushing these retarded things on companies.
0 u/Gargilius 05 Feb 2018 18:14
nope it’s a ios dev tool thingy.
0 u/Ericus-gar 05 Feb 2018 21:22
Right now I spend from 9am - 11:30am every day in agile related meetings... tell me again how this is so productive?
1 u/Pepper-theDoctor 05 Feb 2018 21:55
Agile is a blame distribution system. Everyone can fuck up, the product can miss, and no one is at fault
0 u/WhiteRonin 06 Feb 2018 02:31
Or you get shit for a project 2 days off but nobody is being agile about it ;-)
0 u/WhiteRonin 06 Feb 2018 02:32
That’s about right ... i end up to almost 5 hours on some days.
0 u/discipleofflies 11 Feb 2018 09:40
But Agile overcomes the strawman Waterfall methodology ... that no one actually ever used in the first place. It is shoehorning in an extreme to counter nothing that ever existed in the first place.
0 u/ninjajunkie 05 Feb 2018 17:28
So the left has to lie about everything? Do they have a legit claim to any accomplishments at all?
Feels over reals yet again.
0 u/Kommander 05 Feb 2018 18:03
I don't know what 95% of the programmer language in that article means but I presume this 16 year old lied
0 u/Marsog 05 Feb 2018 21:45
poo in loo paid another dude to develop program and sign an nda.
poo in loo took all the credit and said she developed it all herself. This is false because the author did a few things to see if all the code was written by the same person. Because it was obviously written by more than one person she is indisputably lying.
0 u/mralexson 05 Feb 2018 18:09
A lot of prodigies are frauds
0 u/fortuitouslyunfallen 05 Feb 2018 19:11
I feel as though this story is what feminism is striving for. Women get all the glory, while some poor shmuck is doing all the work behind the scenes. They want all the praise and accolades, but don't want to work for it.
0 u/Empire_of_the_mind 05 Feb 2018 21:29
They strive to enslave you for your labor.
0 u/tame 06 Feb 2018 02:17
I wonder if these circumstances involved lube.
0 u/Anam 26 Feb 2018 19:03
He agrees to let her call the app hers - she agrees not to falsely #metoo him?
0 u/blackPanther 20 Feb 2018 20:15
Why put the effort into being a fraud
0 u/SavishSalacious 28 Feb 2018 16:44
Uh last I checked it was true
People clean up their git hub when they are committing? I mean if it was proven that shes a dumb broad then so be it, but I mean I tend to clean a lot of shit up, how ever my stack overflow is full of stupid questions.
And here's the real evidence - what a typical women. Trying to win one over for their kind.
This is what's sad about women in code, even if they are found to be fake ass bitches, they scream rape (exaggeration but ... Is it really?)
He is right, this is a white male privilege community (I rarely see minority in my jobs unless we are handing it off to those god damn Indians that we have to re-write any ways). Male being the obvious word. All the sexism in the last two years has been mostly women bashing men and complaining about men even existing next to them at a open work space office. But we can't call harassment or bullying because then we look bad, or worse then we already look.
No to all of that, Programming is hard - and I do not believe every child should learn to code, it is a passion, a seed that grows in your heart and takes over your fingers and mind, it is the thing that keeps you awake at night - fuck it's like civilization (one more turn, one more line of code).