Can you get a job as a self-taught programmer?
39 29 Nov 2019 23:22 by u/BigKyle
Can you still get jobs teaching yourself programming? I have been reading a lot of python books, making small projects on github etc etc. The problem I am seeing is so many jobs want computer science degrees. I have a science degree but idk if it will be enough.
77 comments
0 u/heygeorge 29 Nov 2019 23:32
It’s more difficult to get through the initial culling of resumes, but not impossible. There might be some real programmers here who have this same sort of experience. I’ve applied for many positions and always got my foot in the door despite not necessarily, not even once, having all the ‘minimum’ requirements. But not in your field.
0 u/Sosacms 29 Nov 2019 23:33
Yes. It's one of those industries where you're resume can speak for itself. However, until you have 5+ years experience before people stop looking at your lack of education.
0 u/psimonster 29 Nov 2019 23:44
You can do it. Keep refining your skills and learning best practices and keep hustling for jobs.
0 u/BillyLuath 29 Nov 2019 23:47
I did, and I worked in an office where out of 7 programmers only two had any academic training in it, and only one had a degree.
Company was a startup that went Fortune 500after a few years.
0 u/mostlyfriendly 29 Nov 2019 23:49
Yes. I'm happy to hire people like you. In fact, I often prefer to hire people like you. I might pay you less than market rate until you prove your worth, but I'll let you get your foot in the door.
When I interview a dev candidate, I don't care about their formal education. I ask them about their knowledge stack and (most importantly), I ask them what they did last Friday night. The answer I'm looking for is for them to show me their github account and show me the code they are working on for some personal curiosity / personal development project.
Suggestions:
Don't go for the corporate jobs. You won't get past the stupid HR idiots. (We are small enough to not have a HR department in the hiring process ... so you have engineers and devs directly filtering candidates.)
Show up at your local co-working place. Find your local tech community. Rent a desk for $100 / month and start working there as much as you can. If you are in a vibrant location, then lots of hiring is done in the break room. If you are remote and don't have access to a technology community, then put yourself out on indeed, etc. Either way, make sure your linkedin profile is perfect.
Python is good, but not enough. If you are artistic, focus on front end tools. If you are strong in math, focus on dB and back end dev. Node JS is very useful. But, never be about the language / tool.
Doesn't matter the project, just start writing code. If necessary, work for free on open source projects in your spare time until you have the chops to charge for your time. (1000 hrs of free dev work on some open source project is still far cheaper - and more valuable - than a university degree...)
Even after you get your job, never assume you've "arrived". Take the same spirit that got you this far and realize how much more you need to learn. There are always new tools and stacks to learn. The day you stop learning is the day you've retired.
0 u/watts2db 30 Nov 2019 00:31
excellent response
0 u/ThirteenthZodiac 30 Nov 2019 02:45
This isn't to hate on you, specifically, but I absolutely detest this attitude.
Do you expect car mechanics to tinker on their vehicles at home? Are HR people expected to be constantly socializing and improving their networks even while off the job? Accountants should be humming away as they spend their Friday nights doing double-entry accounting for their checking and savings accounts? Doctors should be doing some kind of back-alley thing, offering consults and surgeries and shit on the side?
I'm a software dev as my day job, but I am more than just my occupation, and have plenty of hobbies and interests beyond that. And honestly, after spending ~40 hours a week slinging code at a job that I pretty much hate, the last thing I want to do is come home and write more code. I would much rather cook a decent meal, work on my dnd homebrew, read a book, or even sometimes just go get fucking hammered. If nothing else, I'd rather at least make an attempt at being social on my Friday evenings, and try to meet interesting people.
I aim to try to keep my skill set current, but I do that by reading papers and articles and shit (I'm an AI/ML specialist with an MS specifically in the field, though my current position has nothing to do with that, hence why I hate it), and tinkering with it during slow periods at my current job. I'm not going to spend the time, energy, and resources to set up a Hadoop cluster at home, because (1) I'm not interested in blowing that kind of cash for a side project, and (2) I don't have a reasonable use-case for a significant chunk of my skills, in terms of personal projects.
This whole thing of ignoring peoples' education and work history because they don't have an active project on the side is irksome, and seems to be something unique to software devs (I imagine that more... artsy jobs probably get hit with it as well, with the whole "portfolio" thing, but not being an artsy dude, I'm not familiar and can't speak to that beyond speculation). Expecting software folks to have... what is basically an obsession with their profession strikes me as incredibly unfair and pigeon-holing us, in terms of personality. If you want to talk about the advances in, uses, and drawbacks of various contemporary approaches to artificial intelligence over a beer, I'm definitely game (and would much prefer that conversation over, say, the latest events in sportsball). But expecting me to have that kind of project going on in my back pocket, and not giving me the time of day if I don't? Fuck that noise.
0 u/MaxVieuxlieu 30 Nov 2019 03:41
You sound like exactly the type of candidate this question is designed to filter.
0 u/ThirteenthZodiac 30 Nov 2019 03:46
And you sound like a self-important pretentious jackass.
"Oh you don't spend every waking minute writing code, I don't want you in my org because you lack dedication."
Nevermind that I've been putting in 10+ hour days to meet a coming deadline these past couple weeks. The fact that after doing that I don't want to write more code means that I'm shit at coding.
Brilliant fucking logic there.
0 u/MaxVieuxlieu 30 Nov 2019 05:16
It has absolutely nothing to do with your strengths or weaknesses as a coder.
0 u/ThirteenthZodiac 30 Nov 2019 05:42
Yeah, I guess that whole "work/life balance" thing is a bitch.
0 u/auchtung 30 Nov 2019 06:25
muhahahaha, bitchsmacked out of the interview with a polite handshake and a thanks for coming.
0 u/Glipglup 30 Nov 2019 06:40
Yeah, there's nothing wrong with seeking people who work in their passion. I know some people who work their day job making video games. You know what they do when they get home and spend their free time on? They make video games. Some people just live for shit man. Nothing wrong with a job being just a job but there's nothing wrong with making it more than that as well.
0 u/ThirteenthZodiac 30 Nov 2019 16:53
The problem isn't when people do that. It's expecting it as some kind of baseline.
If you want crazy single-minded people who have literally nothing else going on but their one thing? I probably don't want to work for you anyway, because - gee - I have more interests than just one thing. Sorry for being a more complex person with some actual depth, I guess.
0 u/Intrixina 30 Nov 2019 22:19
It goes the other way too - why would I want to work for someone who expects that I have a social calendar similar to theirs? I don't have to spend all my time not at work acting like an attention whore with social things, I like spending my Friday nights at home (and most of the weekend) with the family doing family-oriented activities.
What you do outside of work is no fucking business of those you work with, unless you make it so.
0 u/mostlyfriendly 30 Nov 2019 04:52
No worries. My reply was something that wasn't targeted at a more experienced dev like yourself, but I'll attempt to reply in good spirit.
Yes. 100%. I expect someone who is young and green and wants to be a great car mechanic to have a hobby project or two. Heck, even most older mechanics who really love what they do have a hot rod they are working on in their garage.
I'm more focused on the technologists here, but yes. Someone who's job is networking ... and who is good at it ... will always be networking.
And, to be frank - I wouldn't want to hire you. This is exactly why I care about that question. :)
Honestly - really does sound like you are in the wrong role. I'm not saying that you aren't good at your job. But, shit ... life is too short to do something you hate for the majority of your waking life. My first job out... I absolutely hated and wanted to quit my profession. I took a new job and realized that it wasn't the job I hated, but it was the employer / situation. After that first bad job, I've loved every bit of my work. Maybe you should look at the same for yourself?
AI/ML is hot right now ... no reason why you can't take a jump and find a better fit before you completely burn out. Life is too short man.
Of course. And a neurosurgeon shouldn't be preforming surgery in his weekend from his garage. My specific advise was to someone trying to get into the field ... not someone who is experienced in the field. (But, more on this below...)
Education, yes. Work history, no. I didn't say that. :)
Education because our 4 year universities mostly suck at teaching how to be a good dev. Teaching technology + creative problem solving isn't easy and doesn't bend well to the 4 year education model.
But, if you have 5-10 years on the job, I wouldn't be asking you the same questions I'd be asking a new graduate or someone without a degree.
You are being a bit myopic. Anyone who is really good at their profession will have an obsession with it. Sales guys are always selling. Good marketing guys are thinking about how to market their products 24/7. In my current role, I work heavily with a marketing team ... the number of 3AM brainstorming ideas on slack ... the creativity and obsession ... it never turns off for these guys.
But - to be frank - this is mostly related to the creative minds. Engineering / software devs / marketing / writing / etc.
To your point - we don't really want pilots / surgeons / dentists / construction workers / etc. to be "creative". We want them to be process oriented. So ... I don't really expect an experienced pilot to be thinking about new and exciting ways to fly a plane at 3AM.
So, is this pigeon-holing? Maybe ... but creatives and non-creatives are different creatures and have different skill sets to offer the world. Putting a creative in a non-creative roll is just as bad as doing the opposite.
Absolutely! I look for passion like this in my teams. Not because I'm 'rah rah rah' pro company, but because I'm slightly smart enough to understand if I align your passion with my needs, then amazing things can happen.
... And, now imagine you are actually getting to implement (and improve on) these AI approaches. Shame on you AND your employer for having you in a role that isn't your passion.
See, this is exactly where you are wrong. If I was hiring you (someone who isn't green and already understands what they want) ... I'd buy you lunch and a beer and we'd talk for as long as we wanted about ML / AI. I read the white papers, but I'm FAR from an expert in this field ... it would be my joy to soak up a bit of your knowledge.
And, in all of this ... I'd figure out where your passions where and what you really wanted to do. If I could (a) figure out what you are passionate about and (b) align that to the needs of the company ... then I'd offer you a job. Otherwise, I wouldn't but at least we enjoyed a nice beer together. To be frank: offering you a job in an area that isn't your passion does a disservice to me and a disservice to you.
Cheers. :)
0 u/ThirteenthZodiac 30 Nov 2019 05:17
I am doing the aforementioned "getting hammered" thing, so cannot - at this moment - respond appropriately.
However I have read your response, and want it known that I am of the opinion that it is solid and well-reasoned. I appreciate your candor, and it is quite deserving of a solid response when I can manage it (ie, not now).
Only thing I want to say right now is that I was led to believe my current role would be much more AI-focused than it is. I was basically catfished, which is part of why I am so frustrated at the moment.
0 u/mostlyfriendly 30 Nov 2019 05:43
All good. :) Best of luck to your drink and to you finding a position that fits your passion.
Don't settle for a shit job ... life is too short, my fellow traveler.
0 u/lanre 30 Nov 2019 17:21
Unfortunately what I've learned is the whole interview / job offer process is a game, and you're very likely to be catfished, and even if you are, it's something your next employer might look at and say "well if you're dumb enough to fall for that, why would I want you?" I agree with mostlyfriendly's sentiment that you want someone that is passionate about their job, but those are hard to find and it's hard for honest people to fake that enthusiasm.
I wouldn't recommend staying in a work environment that doesn't suit you, while at the same time remembering that not everything will ever be perfect and you have to adapt to situations and people if you want to get ahead.
0 u/registerinsecond 30 Nov 2019 16:17
It depends, but usually the interviewer will and should steer the conversation where they get value.
If the candidate says "I like to go bowling on fridays" and you're like "omg he's not coding 24/7 no hire" that's your problem. But I'm sure instead you ask other similar questions until you know if they like what they're doing code wise or not.
Hiring practices are very important as the people make the company, so everything goes both ways. Some companies will never hire the talent they need because of bad practices
That said i overall like your methods.
0 u/mostlyfriendly 30 Nov 2019 16:35
Yep! No one is coding 24/7. We all have interest / hobbies.
Well stated.
0 u/ThirteenthZodiac 30 Nov 2019 17:31
...that's fair. Being in the midst of actively searching for a new job, I've seen this kind of attitude before, directed at me. The whole hiring process right now is completely fucked, and I'm tired of getting passed on in favor of pajeets who will work for peanuts and produce absolute fucking garbage, or being told "you don't have enough experience" when these ignorant fuckwits ask for 5 years experience with a technology 2 years old.
You can drive a hot rod when it's finished. What the hell am I supposed to do with ~5 TB of data and a neural net specifically tuned to it and a particular problem? Besides, at this point, in my free time, I am more interested in focusing on the aspects of the problems of AI that aren't related to the coding bit. Writing the code will be the easy part. What the actual fuck does it mean to know something, though: that's (one of) the real problem(s).
To me, that's just fucking crazy, sorry. People are more than their job. They're allowed to have other hobbies and other interests.
While I appreciate your more detailed explanation here, it really sounds like I wouldn't want to work for you anyway. It seems to me that you think people need to be single-minded to be successful, that they are dedicated to one thing and one thing only. That's just... insane, honestly.
Wow, yes, so insightful. I'm obviously just bitching about my job on the internet and not actively interviewing or anything.
Have some respect for my intelligence, here.
This is absolutely true.
I've been thinking, the past few years, that the issue here is that programming is a trade. You can be a solid coder without necessarily understanding the underlying theory, if given guidance and not expected to design things right off the bat.
I've also seen complete fucktards fail at their job despite having supposedly years at experience. I don't know how you manage to keep a job as a coder for years by failing constantly, but... here we are, I guess.
If I'm not getting paid for the time, I'm not doing a single goddamn thing for you ("you" being my employer, not you specifically). I have to constantly stop myself from thinking about work while at home, because of that approach, but I'll be fucking damned if I give you anything for free. This is how I earn my bread: why the fuck would I give that away for nothing?
If you're going to pay me the same as Bob who sucks ass at slinging code and has to constantly ask me basic-ass questions, why the fucking fuck would I give you even more of my time? It's bad enough that you're getting someone significantly more productive and knowledgeable for the same rate as you get idiot mouth-breathers.
Not only that, but there is such a thing as work/life balance. As I've said, you seem to have this approach where you think that people who are really good at a thing are only interested in that one thing. Maybe that's true for lesser minds, but fuck me if I'm going to focus my brain on one thing 24/7. I'd go fucking crazy.
It is absolutely pigeon-holing. As I've said, it seems to me that you think that "creatives" need to be solely focused on their one thing, and only on that one thing.
That's... basically the definition of pigeon-holing.
I was told the role would have AI, and that - and the ~30% raise - got my attention. Showed up and haven't had dick to do with AI since I got here, including watching the whole hiring process for some fucking intern who got sent to our AI lab.
Why is the AI specialist not at the AI lab? I dunno, and I've stopped asking that question because these idiots clearly don't care. Instead I just quietly started applying for jobs again.
So take your "shame" and kindly shove it up your ass. Maybe you live in some fucking metropolis where jobs just fall out of the sky, but - unfortunately - I live in the shithole that is the American south, and that seems to have tainted my resume to some degree. And as I mentioned earlier, this industry is full of HR fucktards who would much rather hire some pajeet than a white guy who actually knows what the fuck he's talking about.
0 u/Intrixina 30 Nov 2019 22:16
Mostly unrelated, but this line here is the essence of what I used with my employer to get a significant raise - and that I was fully willing to walk if they didn't give it to me. Life's too short to not be appreciated monetarily for what I do.
0 u/user9713 30 Nov 2019 04:58
Can you expand on this further, especially the "renting a desk" part, please?
0 u/mostlyfriendly 30 Nov 2019 05:26
Sure.
There is a whole subculture of co-working spaces. Shared work spaces for technologists and like minded independent (non corporate) people. (This mostly just applies if you are in a +500K larger city. Smaller cities are hit / miss.)
Bottom line: If you want a technology job, and you don't want to work for a large corporate employer, then you've got to go hang out where the employers are. 80%of my hires in the last 2 years have been through networking and the local tech community. I have open recs, but I don't bother posting jobs on monster.com / etc. Those are a waste of time for the most part.
Most larger cities these days have technology clusters. Especially relating to the start-up or so called 'gig economy'. Many have co-working spaces for like minded technologists.
The largest if WeWork (wework.com), but there are many others. Some are vibrant communities, some are dead. It's hit / miss.
I did check WeWork pricing and for a desk is $350+. So, more expensive than my $100 ... sorry, hadn't priced this in a couple years. Spending $350+ for a desk is too much. I can't recommend that.
There are cheaper alternatives:
- Start attending meetups in the area. Networking is key. Meetups are often free.
- Find if your local 'startup incubator'. Look at their social media pages for networking events, etc. Or just go talk to them.
- Some smaller co-working spaces are going to be cheaper than WeWork.
0 u/user9713 30 Nov 2019 05:34
It does, thank you.
0 u/Commie_Meta 30 Nov 2019 11:22
I would never hire anyone who even stepped foot in such a place. You owe your client a duty of confidentiality. Showing their trade secrets on a screen in a public space is illegal and marks you as a traitor.
Oh? Everybody is doing it? So what. If you want to work for a mom and pop shop, fine. Turn traitor to your clients. But if you want a real job, secrecy or GTFO.
0 u/GreatWhiteBeyond 30 Nov 2019 16:15
What types of personal projects would you expect/like to see a candidate working on? Would games demonstrate ability at all, or are they too off-track from more standard, real world projects?
0 u/mostlyfriendly 30 Nov 2019 16:30
Good code is good code. Yes - there are tools / stacks that employers will need you to know. But, for someone without any 'real world' experience, being able to talk about your personal projects is very powerful.
I know a several very good programmers who got their start by writing utilities / patches for games when they were younger.
The formula is pretty simple:
1. You observed a problem. Something that impacted you or others.
2. You were curious and creative enough to figure out a way to solve the problem.
3. You had enough discipline and motivation to actually put some work in and solve the problem. (This is the hard step, most people get stuck here.)
4. You are capable of communicating well enough to explain the above to your community / friends / etc.
Do this and you will be able to demonstrate significant value.
0 u/GreatWhiteBeyond 01 Dec 2019 00:18
Nice. Thanks for the reply. Thinking in terms of problems and solutions seems like a good way to visualize everything.
0 u/dummythicc 30 Nov 2019 21:49
Jesus fucking christ I hate people like you. I have met so many of you shitheads in my industry, or what's left of it, that I have almost no hope of things getting better. This is also some of the FUCKING DUMBEST advice I have ever read.
This is what absolute fucking morons and hipsters do. Paying to go rent a desk just to "socialize" with other morons. Do NOT do this, nobody who runs any kind of successful business will be hanging out at this place. period. Hell anyone who is a successful programmer will not be sitting there on their own dime working remotely. This is the tech version of writers sitting at coffee shops.
There is a valid reason why C devs make more then fucking server-side-js aka nodejs devs. If you just want a "job" and nothing but a job then fine but language is important. To pretend otherwise is a boldface lie.
This new trend must be the fucking dumbest thing to ever happen. 1000hrs on some random github > 5 year university degree. Shut your fucking stupid mouth. Yes there are very talented coders who never went to university but the exception does not make the rule. It's funny if this was engineering/medicine it would be inconceivable to hire some "self-trained" employee but programming with it's painfully low bar of entry lets everyone who is a "javascript engineer" and "html programmer" bleat about how gifted they are.
This is some stupid stupid stupid advice but the kind you read from shitholes like hackernews, a reddit-tier feel good circle jerk.
0 u/slwsnowman40 30 Nov 2019 22:04
There are corporations that give the department hiring the resumes to go through. Not all corporations are dictated by their HR departments.
0 u/YoHomie 30 Nov 2019 00:23
Yes. You need to prove your worth at the interview.
0 u/ThirteenthZodiac 30 Nov 2019 02:51
I'm sorry, I didn't catch that. Did you say something?
0 u/watts2db 30 Nov 2019 00:27
Yes its actually preferable (and I have a degree). Check out w3schools.com
0 u/snafu 30 Nov 2019 01:02
It will be very hard to get started, but once you have even one company on your resume it'll become a lot easier to get the next one. Most companies nowadays will do a coding and technical interview though, so if you can get past the recruiting part you'll have an opportunity to show off your skills.
0 u/glennvtx 30 Nov 2019 01:17
Just build some things, any good employer will be able to judge your competency by directly examining your code. It is as the other comment said, in larger companies and more especially not fast moving industry, it might be hard to get past HR, but you probably don't want to work there, anyhow.
0 u/ReadPastHeadlines 30 Nov 2019 01:41
Side projects. We care more about passion projects done as a hobby than how much education someone has.
So many are interviewed with a 4 year computer science degree and are turned away because we don't think they have what it takes to program.
0 u/RustyEquipment 30 Nov 2019 02:48
Look into lab information systems. It’s what I do and we take lab employees and train them on programming or other aspects of that wasn’t their degree.
I hate my job though...
0 u/ThirteenthZodiac 30 Nov 2019 02:52
I work with guys who... ostensibly write code, who don't have programming degrees. Their code is trash, but they still technically have the job, even if I have to come in after them and clean their shit up, or explain to them incredibly basic programming concepts.
If you have a science-oriented degree and can demonstrate that you can code, I imagine that you'd be fine. Some places will obviously be pickier than others, but I can't imagine that it would be as difficult as getting such a job would be for someone without any college education.
0 u/SocksOnCats 30 Nov 2019 03:28
Absolutely. I’ve gotten my last three jobs (over the last 11 years) on the skills I taught myself.
In fact, when I was challenged by one interviewer who haughtily asked: “Can you do this job?”, my response was: “I taught myself to code, out of boredom with games, at age 9. I released my first game at 11. Just a few years later I was gathering analytics on the game from players and using the data to improve the game. Since then I’ve learned Pascal, ADA, Cocoa, C, some C++, HTML, CSS, Perl, some Python, and I’ve currently settled on JavaScript. I worked in the Apple core OS team, and helped to design an enterprise level data and analytics machine. Ya, I think I can do this job and I can make you a lot of money while I work here.” Dude was astounded and I got the job.
In another case I was asked to write a procedure which would iterate through an array. I asked them if they’d care to review the 12,000 lines of code I’d just written that week, many of which iterate through massive arrays.
In short, yes. And I don’t do github.
0 u/registerinsecond 30 Nov 2019 16:20
The array question sux. Everyone has a variation of it. You can just memorize one version and write it down, all it shows is that you have passed interviews before and learned from that.
Github is nice because they don't have to ask you to see your code, it's already there.
0 u/SocksOnCats 30 Nov 2019 16:39
I maintain a couple of fairly extensive websites. I don’t like github because of the politics and the complexity.
I wound up writing a function which iterates. It was hilarious. This snot nosed kid kept trying to correct me and all he did was show his ignorance. I didn’t want to work there and told them so and left. Was pretty funny.
0 u/MaxVieuxlieu 30 Nov 2019 03:39
Yes you absolutely can, just have to be able to point to some code you wrote that actually works.
0 u/peacegnome 30 Nov 2019 04:33
We interviewed some people for a ML position who were self taught and had no work history.
0 u/sinclair 30 Nov 2019 05:16
What science degree do you have? And why programming? if you want money, there's plenty of things in the data field you can be doing for prevailing wage.
0 u/modsrcuntz 30 Nov 2019 06:30
Absolutely. You just have to be good.
0 u/Skins 30 Nov 2019 06:31
Two words: Apply anyway.
0 u/Commie_Meta 30 Nov 2019 10:56
Agreed. Job descriptions are just fantasy wish lists.
Google has said they only look at university grades and degrees for the first few years after graduating. After that it is what work did you. What did companies pay you for.
0 u/Glipglup 30 Nov 2019 06:36
In my experience self teaching is really the only way to learn programming. Practice and experience offer more than any degree ever could.
Watch out for those pajeets though they are sending IT into the shitter
0 u/jthun2 30 Nov 2019 07:46
As someone with many years and world class credentials in tech, I agree. Coding is not taught in universities. It shouldn't be, in a sense. There's so much that one can only learn by working on BIG projects. All the stuff you learn in school is supposed to be fundamentals, but when you are hired and forced to work with legacy code consisting of millions of lines of spaghetti, none of that background is all that useful.
0 u/telleveryoneyouknow 30 Nov 2019 08:12
No probrem sir! We will take care of that sir! We understand how important this is sir!
Weeks later...
No probrem sir! We will...
[never ends]
0 u/cantaloupe6 30 Nov 2019 06:40
The degree you have doesn't matter too much except it, should be something difficult. A science degree sounds alright.
A CS degree of course would make it easier. You have to know data structures and algorithms and be able to write (on a white board) from memory in a given language:
https://www.programiz.com/dsa
Interviews in that industry are stupid; because the people interviewing you have no idea how to do that - but they want to look good to their peers.
0 u/telleveryoneyouknow 30 Nov 2019 08:11
It’s competitive as fuck out there. I’d recommend starting your own business. If you are patient and live below your means and save - you can earn many times more than you need. So many people need help with tech.
0 u/xachariah 30 Nov 2019 08:21
Yes. Try to find a company that does a coding test as part of the interview. Mine has implemented that (largely at my urging), and it's been a godsend compared to who we used to hire before.
We'll regularly interview half a dozen 'programmers' with CS degrees who can't even write FizzBuzz let alone get to the real problems. How they lasted at prior jobs I'll never know. We end up hiring whoever can actually do the job, whether they're self-taught or college educated.
0 u/THEx1138 30 Nov 2019 10:50
Everyone that I hired in my 40 year career started out very young in learning electronics and computers. What I like to see is someone self-taught as a teen and then having gone to some type of pipeline training. The people that did not have any post high school training did not do as well as those with vocational training.
The people that decided that they wanted computers and electronics in their second or later year of college were useless.
0 u/BeingUseful 30 Nov 2019 11:49
I've been a professional developer for almost 15 years now. I've worked with a hundred folks over the years.
Only about half of them had a degree. Of those with a degree, only 1/3 had a degree that was related to tech in any way.
Hiring managers have come to the realization that credentials mean next to nothing these days. Also, a Computer Science degree means you have met the requirements for a degree in Computer Science. Programmers are not doing Computer Science, they are programming.
A Comp. Sci. degree isn't worthless. I value mine because it gave me a solid, mathematical foundation to venture into math-heavy topics like machine learning and quantum computing. But it's by no means necessary for day-to-day programming tasks.
0 u/MadCatTimberWolf 30 Nov 2019 12:18
Being acquainted with Python is not enough. First and foremost for coding read Code Complete (McConnell) , for testing consult Software Testing Techniques (Beizer), for APIs contemplate Design Patterns (Freeman), and finally Select and study at least three real world databases - Open Edge (Relational), PostgreSQL (Object/Relational), Cache (Schema Less).
0 u/TinyBunch 30 Nov 2019 12:39
I addition to what a lot of people have said, let me add that working on small projects of your own is like building model rockets then going to apply for a job at Space-X as a rocket designer.
Projects now are made up of many people working together. Get involved in a bigger open source project and learn how to add/fix things without breaking something else. Learn how to understand something that came from someone else's mind. Or minds. Learn to disagree then drop your ego to go along with the consensus.
0 u/BigKyle [OP] 01 Dec 2019 03:26
How do I find one that I can get involved in easily?
0 u/TinyBunch 03 Dec 2019 12:14
You want easy? Give up programming.
There is so much open source out there. Maybe Paint.Net, Notepad++, or some Boost project needs help. There's Linux and other operating open source operating systems.
I just typed on Bing, "Open source projects looking for help" and got https://www.firsttimersonly.com/
0 u/Winston321 30 Nov 2019 14:35
I would suggest start recording tutorials on YouTube. It's a good way to showcase your knowledge.
0 u/AntiMason 30 Nov 2019 14:43
I did.
0 u/EVLGOATZ 30 Nov 2019 15:01
This whole thread hits home hard, I'm into my third year on a computer science degree and attain great grades but in reality, I am pretty shit a coding and have grown to hate the subject, as a result, my progress is slowing to the point where I just want to pass the damn course.
Any suggestions to try and get the spark back? Terrifies me that after 3 years, good grades and placement experience that I won't want to work in the industry.
0 u/registerinsecond 30 Nov 2019 16:23
Find a thing you like and code it. If there aren't any, find something that isn't code. Not everyone likes to code. A lot of people are told this is the job that makes money but it's not even true.
Go be a lawyer or something. You might like it better and it will make more money.
0 u/EVLGOATZ 30 Nov 2019 18:27
I do have a project in mind to start in the new year once this term is over. Atm im working with wcf services and its so incredibly boring lol.
Fingers crossed the fire reignites. Failing that graduate schemes it is.
0 u/TheAmerican 30 Nov 2019 16:58
No. Unless you are a genius you will be retarded compared to those who are trained
0 u/bezzy 30 Nov 2019 16:59
GitHub + blog
0 u/lanre 30 Nov 2019 17:18
If you need help building your portfolio to show off to potential employers, you could try something like upwork or other temp job sites where you can do smaller projects for people. I'm not sure how far along you are, but I used this method when I was proficient at translating but not great, because it cuts out a lot of the filters that a purchasing department has, since the jobs are smaller or need to be done quickly. And if you're still learning, sometimes you can find a job that isn't as time sensitive and learn as you go and get paid to do it. Later on when I finished school I outsourced some of my day to day work to a python programmer and some other data analysts and offered to give one a job recommendation.
0 u/Cat-hax 30 Nov 2019 19:32
My cousin who now works for the government is self taught , he went to college just to get the degree. But he would of been fine with out it.
0 u/ginx2666 30 Nov 2019 19:51
Well, yeah. If you've a github with at least one project updated regularly, that's all proof you'll ever need. Bachelors or Masters might be required for a higher position, like senior dev or project lead though.
0 u/DanielR 30 Nov 2019 20:26
Yeah, if you can get clients
0 u/kevf4 30 Nov 2019 21:44
Possibly at a startup, but your pay could vary widely. Unfortunately most big companies won't even take you into consideration. If you are serious then get a bachelor's degree in computer science. You can work as an intern while going to school.
0 u/LastCowboy 30 Nov 2019 22:55
Of course you can if you work hard at it and are talented. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
0 u/JeremyARussell 01 Dec 2019 12:52
Absolutely. I did it. I started off with working fixing computers at a local small business and literally worked my way up from at home IT support, to medical IT support, to big business IT support from there to doing application development at the same company and eventually getting to the one I'm at now.
That pathway is a bit unique to me I think, but in a general sense, work experiences and those open source projects (no kidding my 2d evolution game was cited as something that made me stick out to the new company) can and will take you the distance to a well paying programming career.
0 u/BigKyle [OP] 02 Dec 2019 20:28
Should I lie on my resume? I put 'self employed' but wonder if that screws me. Legit thinking about just making up a company to lie about working there. It sucks how hard it it, I get auto disqualified for these jobs, and I put key words in them.
0 u/Q_From_Star_Trek 09 Dec 2019 15:27
noi